Coming Out

painter · Subject: Re: Coming Out Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:55 pm

dare de-vil wrote:

it IS kinda intrusive. but the biggest part is the awkwardness. we're all so used 2 hearing our parents say wen we're little, "wen u find a nice girl..." but now my mom sez "ull find a nice boy...", i just dont like it.

Yeah, you're right, that is annoying and intrusive. She probably means well, not that that is any excuse. FWIW, she'd be saying the same thing with the opposite gender if you were straight and you'd probably find it just as annoying. One of the things I hated about growing up in my family was everyone seemed to pay far too much attention to everyone else's business and not nearly enough minding their own. It throws the whole system out of whack.

ems · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:27 am

but you do want to find a nice boy Razz

_________________

You, me, whipped cream and handcuffs. Any questions?

nicks18 · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:07 am

painter wrote:

and appreciate that you've let me hang out with you.

You have no idea how much we, if not atleast I, appreciate you Mr. Mike. You're like the gay uncle we never had. Now we do!

painter wrote:

One of the things that is weird to me is that apparently, even though things were very weird in a lot of ways, I was having more sexual experiences from an early age than most of you have had. Like I said, it was very schizoid for me.

I have a theory, and I speak only for myself on this, dunno if the other guys share the same sentiment. Maybe its because the very lack of "educational" resources and societal norm on the gay phenomenon in the rural environment allowed the unknowing gay individual (you) to explore the said phenomenon in ways a present society acclimatized gay person would not due to restrictions set by the established societal norm on the said phenomenon. What do you think?

painter wrote:

I had a killing crush on a guy who lived in my dorm, ...and there was something about the way he moved his body -- especially his arms and hands -- that just fascinated me....But he was STRAIGHT!

I know the feeling! I once had a friend who I got the hots for, but he was straight. Nobody know i was gay then. So...yeah damnit.

painter wrote:

I'm not very social and really don't WANT to know very many people, gay or otherwise.Too bad for you, you guys are kind of an exception, I guess. Surprised

We're flattered.

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The Who's Who of Kabe
dare de-vilKellypainservedcoldTrevoririshboi69Sammy
StaileTylerSabaziusAlexpainterMr.MikeemsEThatsme
DannyTheCptNemoJoshuathreedollrbillBillxstinger03x
ErickEWLWolfgangcrazzycatOdry. And I am Batman.
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painter · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:11 am

ems wrote:

but you do want to find a nice boy Razz

Of course he does. But not TOO nice. Razz

painter · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:36 am

nicks18 wrote:

painter wrote:

and appreciate that you've let me hang out with you.

You have no idea how much we, if not atleast I, appreciate you Mr. Mike. You're like the gay uncle we never had. Now we do!

Thanks, that's sweet. I appreciate it.

nicks18 wrote:

painter wrote:

One of the things that is weird to me is that apparently, even though things were very weird in a lot of ways, I was having more sexual experiences from an early age than most of you have had. Like I said, it was very schizoid for me.

I have a theory, and I speak only for myself on this, dunno if the other guys share the same sentiment. Maybe its because the very lack of "educational" resources and societal norm on the gay phenomenon in the rural environment allowed the unknowing gay individual (you) to explore the said phenomenon in ways a present society acclimatized gay person would not due to restrictions set by the established societal norm on the said phenomenon. What do you think?

I think that may have something to do with it. When I was a boy "gay" wasn't a concept in my social environment -- although "queer" was. I think being "gay" is somehow "bigger" -- not sure how to explain what I mean. I mean, it would be one thing to be "queer," a guy who likes to have sex with other guys, but being "gay" means something more than that. It means lots of different things but it references a whole sub-culture, a cultural identity not just what you like to do sexually. SO... identifying as "gay" to one's self or others is associated not only with sex but also with that whole sub-cultural concept. Also, I think the whole AIDS thing has had a big impact, too. Whether they understand it or however they understand it or misunderstand it, the awareness that sexual contact with another of whatever gender could be risky to one's physical health beyond just ordinary STDs can put a real damper on the prospect. And I'm also noticing that among gay youth there seems to be more emphasis on "boyfriends" which means "relationship" and emotional connection. THAT wasn't much apart of what I experienced growing up. It was sex and it was fun and enjoyable (although there was also guilt and shame associated with it, too, which, in a weird way, also made it "hotter" because it was something you knew you weren't supposed to do although you might have not had much of an idea "why" except it was "queer"). I would have liked to have had a relationship. My first real crush happened in the 5th grade. I was totally in love with the boy (the one who, later, pined me up against the coach's desk). What was weird was, even though we slept together more than once (sleep overs at one another's houses), we never "did" anything. So, it may have been, even then, without the word "gay" to make it even more complicated, we both felt that the emotional aspect was just too intense. I know (having heard it from one who would know) that my heart throb DID play around, just as I did -- but we never played w/ one another. How fucked up is that!?

nicks18 wrote:

painter wrote:

I had a killing crush on a guy who lived in my dorm, ...and there was something about the way he moved his body -- especially his arms and hands -- that just fascinated me....But he was STRAIGHT!

I know the feeling! I once had a friend who I got the hots for, but he was straight. Nobody know i was gay then. So...yeah damnit.

Yeah, well, if my growing up experiences taught me anything it is that "straight" guys do play -- or did. The problem is the emotional component. Straight guys don't mind being "friends" with another guy -- and friendship can be pretty intense -- but they don't want to be "tied" to that relationship. I'm making a generalization, of course, each individual is different.

nicks18 wrote:

painter wrote:

I'm not very social and really don't WANT to know very many people, gay or otherwise.Too bad for you, you guys are kind of an exception, I guess. Surprised

We're flattered.

And I'm appreciative! Very Happy

Sabazius · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:53 pm

nicks18 wrote:

painter wrote:

and appreciate that you've let me hang out with you.

You have no idea how much we, if not atleast I, appreciate you Mr. Mike. You're like the gay uncle we never had. Now we do!

I actually have a gay uncle, but we don't really talk about this kinda thing cos he lives like 200 miles away and we don't see each other often enough to really feel comfortable talking about this kinda stuff. But yeah, I know what you mean!

nicks18 wrote:

painter wrote:

One of the things that is weird to me is that apparently, even though things were very weird in a lot of ways, I was having more sexual experiences from an early age than most of you have had. Like I said, it was very schizoid for me.

I have a theory, and I speak only for myself on this, dunno if the other guys share the same sentiment. Maybe its because the very lack of "educational" resources and societal norm on the gay phenomenon in the rural environment allowed the unknowing gay individual (you) to explore the said phenomenon in ways a present society acclimatized gay person would not due to restrictions set by the established societal norm on the said phenomenon. What do you think?

I can see what you mean by this. I think actually, although the effect is much less now we live in a society that is aware of and (somewhat) accepting of homosexuality, being gay is still something that you tend to be accustomed to thinking of as a private thing, and it is also something that you tend to explore without being advised on it by your parents and teachers and friends in the way that straight people do - I mean, obviously you might have some contact with fellow gays online, like we do, but not everyone does.
I think that's why, for example, talking to your parents about being gay, or coming out, can be so cringeworthy even if you and they are totally comfortable with your sexuality. I think it is even more awkward than being straight, cos even though sexuality is a private thing when you're straight, it's not totally hidden from everyone as it is when you're gay and in the closet. I guess that goes some way to explaining why Kell gets uncomfortable talking about it with his mom, although obviously he's got other reasons to be angry about her knowing he's gay and talking to him about it. Just remember Kell, we're here for you buddy.

_________________
Sab's Rules For Living:
Live beyond the confines your head.
Give everything you can to everyone you know.
No fear, no hesitation, no regrets.

painter · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:45 am

Sabazius wrote:

I can see what you mean by this. I think actually, although the effect is much less now we live in a society that is aware of and (somewhat) accepting of homosexuality, being gay is still something that you tend to be accustomed to thinking of as a private thing, and it is also something that you tend to explore without being advised on it by your parents and teachers and friends in the way that straight people do - I mean, obviously you might have some contact with fellow gays online, like we do, but not everyone does.
I think that's why, for example, talking to your parents about being gay, or coming out, can be so cringeworthy even if you and they are totally comfortable with your sexuality. I think it is even more awkward than being straight, cos even though sexuality is a private thing when you're straight, it's not totally hidden from everyone as it is when you're gay and in the closet. I guess that goes some way to explaining why Kell gets uncomfortable talking about it with his mom, although obviously he's got other reasons to be angry about her knowing he's gay and talking to him about it. Just remember Kell, we're here for you buddy.

Very insightful and well stated, Alex, and I want to echo your supportive comment to Kell. I'm totally getting where he's coming from.

You're right, growing up and coming to terms with your sexuality is "cringeworthy" for everyone gay or straight but there is a big difference, too. We're a minority and, although less so than it once was, in many respects an "invisible" one. How many of us grow up knowing there are gay adults around us who could serve as role models? How many of us grow up with older gay relatives or teachers who we'd feel comfortable talking about any of it with? It is tender and sensitive territory for a lot of reasons.

I've been reading the "Dermot" story in the high school section of Nifty. I was struck by a rather lengthy dissertation about the relationship between sexuality and "sin" presented by one of the characters, Lando. I won't give a full synopsis, anyone interested can read the full story himself, but in this scene Lando, a gay Catholic teenager, is being challenged about his faith by Dermot, a gay teenager who has had some very negative experiences with Catholic, authoritarian attitudes toward homosexuality. The below is how Lando has made sense of it for himself. I'd be curious to hear what others think about it -- not about his chosen religion but the way he's made sense of sexuality:

Quote:

"It doesn't compute, Lando. I think you're fooling yourself. But
shit! What do I know?" Dermot concluded in a rush of uncertainty, not
wishing to offend his friend.

"If you promise not to get all hostile, I'll give you the benefit of
my thoughts on the subject," Lando said.

Dermot nodded.

Lando began, "I did tell you that I had to struggle with it, and you
are right in saying that the fit is not perfect. All I can say is that I
knew I was both gay and Catholic, and I had to find a way to make that work
for me. I talked to my dad, to Father Schiller, and to my psychologist,
Dr. Lanier. And I'm going to use the word 'sin' whether you like it or
not. Now just shut up and listen. We can argue about it some other time."

"The way I see it, there are three ways a person can experience sex.
One way is the way you have experienced it. Sex can be used to hurt
someone. The most obvious way is in the S&M stuff you were describing, and
in rape. That's a blatant, physical harm. But there are other ways in
which sex can be used to hurt someone. Sex can be used to try to control
someone. I haven't seen this in my own life, but I have heard of instances
at school where a girl told her boyfriend, 'if you don't do what I want,
there will be no sex for you.' That's a perversion of sex, I think. Both
these examples are more about power and control than sex. And then, sex
can be used to depersonalize someone. Use someone. Just treating someone
like an object instead of a person. What's the phrase? A cum bucket. So,
I think if you're the instigator of any of these kinds of sex, that's a
serious sin. What we call a mortal or deadly sin, because it kills the
spirit. It dulls the conscience if something like this is done often
enough, so people get to think there's nothing wrong with it, but that does
not change the reality. You're dehumanizing the other person. In these
examples, sex is used to hurt the other person, and treat that person as
something less than a full human being, a child of God."

"Another way of having sex is what we might call recreational sex that
does not harm anyone. I mean, something like what I described doing. I
really enjoy sucking and being sucked, and the guys who have been my
partners have been kids at school, like me. It's completely mutual, and
completely consensual. Nobody is being coerced, physically or otherwise.
Just a couple of guys getting off. But it's not serious. None of us are
into a serious relationship. We're not cheating on anybody. It's just
fun. Now, I don't think that's a serious sin, but it's not using sex the
way God intended it, either. But what I'm doing is no different, morally,
than what an awful lot of straight kids are doing on dates. So, I think of
this as a venial sin. It is a sin, because it's using sex in something
other than the best way, but it's not going to send me to hell. Purgatory,
maybe, but not hell."

"Finally, there is sex the way God intended it. Father Schiller told
me sex is the greatest gift God gave mankind, next to His divine Son,
Jesus. Sex is meant to be an expression of love. St. John tells us, 'God
is Love.' In its most perfect form, when it is an expression of genuine,
unselfish love, sex is a participation in the love God has for humanity.
It's actually something sacred. And that's true whether it's gay or
straight sex. And I don't think that kind of sex is a sin at all."

Sabazius · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:30 am

Link to this story please? I want to read it now, it's so hard sometimes to find this kind of insightful and developed story.

_________________
Sab's Rules For Living:
Live beyond the confines your head.
Give everything you can to everyone you know.
No fear, no hesitation, no regrets.

painter · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:45 am

Sorry, Alex, I should have done that: Dermot.

TheCptNemo · Posts: 36 Join date: 2009-10-24 Age: 32 Location: Atlanta

So I was worried about how long this story might be & was working out ways to make it shorter, then I read Mike's & thought... SAFE!

I really did not come out... i was outed. I was in college @ Virginia Tech (I grew up in Virginia) and for some reason my mother had called me. This was a regular event and I think I was planning on coming home. Now a Mom call for me was a big deal... because it usually involved a long diatribe from her on all the things I was doing wrong & how if I just did what she wanted me to it would all be great! <rolls eyes> Some how during the conversation she said something about me needing to spend "less time trying to sleep with some slutty girl & more time studying" to which I responded "not a problem Mom, move on". Well my mother has never just moved on from a topic. Needless to say after a few moments of her droning on about sluts I yelled out "I am gay mom, I like guys, its NOT an issue, move on!". There was a loud crash and then silence... The phone went dead.

I called back like twenty times & finally she answered. She would not talk to me because she was crying... like LOUD crying... but I got her to promise she would tell no one until I got home that weekend & could tell the fam... That convo was on a tuesday...

[This part I found out later from a friend & my dad]

So my dad owned like three or four companies at that time & was crazy busy. Apparently from Tuesday on my mom did nothing but cry... a lot... really loud. My dad was freaking out & was really worried. He was calling everyone but I was ignoring the calls from home thinking they were my Mom and not wanting to deal. Finally on thur he had had enough & figed he would take my mom to lunch at a local restaurant (small town) & maybe in public she would calm down & he could talk to her to find out what was going on. Finally, she calmed down & leaned in really close and she hissed to him "Joshua's gay!!!"... my dad sat bolt upright making a loud noise crashing the table & very loudly said "You have had me worried sick and wondering if someone was dying all because Joshua is GAY! GOOD GOD who cares!" so... needless to say several people who knew me started calling me at school as many ppl who knew me were there for lunch. I got a lot of angry calls from friends wanting to know why I never told them... & one date offer! I also lost a lot "friends" some I think were just hurt to never have been told be me :-(

Needless to say I was pissed. To this day I dont like it (with you on the whole intrusion thing Kell) but I have forgiven her... but not until she did many more transgressions (like ignoring my current husband for 5 years like he was a non-person) & we did not speak for more than a year. Since then she has apologized & we are closer... She was at our reception for the wedding (no parents @ the wedding... out of state and all) & oddly enough calls & emails Scot all the time to talk (still kinda freaks him out given the history & all).

My sisters well they found out. They could care less. No I take that back they are really cool about. The youngest is just now in college and I found out this week that she walked clear across a room to tell some guy off b/c he made an anti-gay comment. She is all of 4'10' & is a blond & green-eyed terror! The guy was so scared he ran out of the room! ROFL!

Now at 32 I dont have much chance to "come out" any more. When I change jobs (as I did at the beginning of the year) I just tell people as needed/ asked. The HR department knows, the ppl I work with asked how long I have been married & I just say "Scot & I got married last year, been together for 8 years though". Its funny, some don't catch it, & some are not sure if they heard right. So funny to seem them squirm on asking if they heard it right... I never help out they have to ask <evil grin> I treat it like it is normal - because it is!

So there ya go!

dare de-vil · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:36 am

hey, that wasnt so bad as far as long posts go. that mite be the only long post ive ever liked lol. well it sucks that yer mom didnt seem t'take it 2 well at 1st. but ya know, time goes on.

congrats dude, i think yer the 1st member of this site 2 speak whos married lol

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ems · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:59 am

Pretty KewL. At least things are better for you now. Are guys planning on adopting children or anything?

_________________

You, me, whipped cream and handcuffs. Any questions?

dare de-vil · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:13 am

EPHRAIM! talk about a personal question...

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TheCptNemo · Posts: 36 Join date: 2009-10-24 Age: 32 Location: Atlanta

@Kell - its cool, if it gets to personal i will say so, i usually am not shy though so be careful what you ask! LOL

@ems - I used to think i did not like kids. Just three years ago if you had asked I would have thought u were crazy! Now, & I am told this sounds arrogant *shrug*, I have realized I dont like parents! I am tired of so many ppl that have kids and mistreat them, dont care about them, raise them to be dumb sheeple... I now want kids- surrogate or adopted so I can raise my kids to be thinkers & doers & their own selfs & not some shadow of what they think society wants. I have also come to realize that i like kids. Their minds are open, their hearts are open and the world is so full of wonder to them!

As I get older I doubt I will get kids, but I really want them.. two... but right now it just cost so much & takes so much emotionally- not the kids the adoption & paperwork part! That and Scot is not healthy so I am not sure how that would work.. but I hope and dream.

dare de-vil · Subject: Re: Coming Out Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:10 pm

well i hope everything turns out the way u guys want soon

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