guys, talk

Great chapter - I wish I had the muscles/guts to really feel able to defend myself against homophobia, even if it's not as aggressive as Taylor's way of doing so! I'm enjoying the way the narrative of this story is developing, kinda bouncing along and zooming in on moments when T takes a step forward, rather than writing about every single time they spend together. I'm looking forward to romantic complications, of course! Keep up the excellent work as always, dude.

I didnt know that there was a chapter posted... Anyways, it was mildly funny. But a little unbelievable that one guy would help soo wan guys to come out. Was it nice to read? Yes. But not exactly what i expected. It was a very ok- ish chapter for me...

well e, wat cud i hav done better?

so far nick and taylor is the only story of yours iv read all the chapters in kell and im enjoying it a lot • just started reading noah and jaden last night and havent gotten very far yet but i can already see how u r developing as a writer just from what little ive read

i really enjoyed the first kiss scene between nick and taylor • that seemed very real and believable to me • certainly brought back memories of some of my first experiences • overall i like that things are developing slowly between the nick and taylor

one thing that is a bit problematic is i dont know some important details of nicks history • it isnt a big deal but im curious because hes obviously more out and experienced than taylor • we know this because he has friends that weve only begun to meet, he has this 'system' worked out, hes even said he knows other gay kids in his school but we dont know any of them or his history w/ them • dont misunderstand this as being 2 critical im enjoying the story as told but just sharing my observation as a reader

i had some trouble w/ the fight scene in the way nick seemed so unconcerned about his 'friends' who got beat up by taylor • i was totally ready to believe these guys were really drunk 'bad guys' and it was surprised as taylor to learn they were only acting • but, damn, nick sort of shrugs off their injuries like it is 'no big deal' but loosing yer front teeth IS a big deal (seems 2 me, nyway) • so that part didnt 'ring' as real • maybe if hed only gotten a nose bleed • also giving them $20 each for their trouble seems weird cuz unless they were out of work winos or something that wouldnt be much

the description of the fight scene worked really well tho • like i said i was totally beliving it

someone else questioned whether taylor had any girl or straight porn on his computer • good question • without that no way im buying he is 'bi' although i can buy that taylor doesn't want to accept that he is gay or say so to nick • im also curious about what kind of inner struggle is going on in taylor about this • we don't get to hear what he is thinking or feeling, only what he does or says which conveys some of it but not the depth of it (i suspect)

finally, im a little concerned about nicks 'strategy', the way he fooled taylor (and the reader) about the fight • although it is 'for a good cause' so to say it shows that he can lie and be dishonest, actually manipulative • that might not trouble some people but it does me as i have trust issues with people who arent honest r not honest and r manipulative

let me know if what im saying is helpful to you as a writer • as an artist myself i know how tricky criticism can be • on one hand we need CONSTRUCTIVE criticism • its opposite does not help at all • on the other hand sometimes we can take criticism in too deeply and, as artists, we get 'froze up' inside, unable to work for fear it wont be 'right' or watever • so i want to make sure you understand that im VERY impressed w/ your writing skills and i know if you keep at it it will ONLY get better • i admire the way youve thought this through and r obviously still thinking it all thru • that is one of the beauties of serial stories as they can build and change and grow thru time • so watever i say, take from it wat is useful 2 u and disregard the rest

I agree with Mike.

It makes me wonder what else Nick may have lied, or will lie about. This chapter was written VERY well. Compared to your earlier chapters and stories, there is no doubt in my mind that you have developed much as a writer this past year.

Looking forward to the next chapter!

Kell, for me it wasnt as much your writing but the story. I gotta agree that losing a few teeth is a very big deal and 20 is not going to solve it as far i know. Besides where did he meet college guys from?? Did they have a past?? If they were really good friends and shrugged off the injuries why did they ask for money?? There might be answered io the next few chapter but ya know it felt very incomplete.

up thread kell wrote:

dare de-vil wrote:

<snip>also, as much as i love u calling it good, wat i write isnt porn. 1st off, porn has pictures & is way more fun looking at than words. i write shals fiction, which u can look up online cuz its an actual genre of writing <snip>

HEY, i just googled "shals fiction" (copied and pasted to make sure i spelled it like you did) and the ONLY hit i got was where you mentioned it in this thread!

SO . . . I'm wondering. Did you spell it wrong or wat? I'd like to know more about this genre of writing.

ALSO, just fyi, some of the great thinkers on literature disagree with your definition of porn having to have pictures in it. Take, for example, this excerpt from Joseph Campbell lecturing to some graduate students on "The Way of Art":

Quote:

Proper art, says [James] Joyce, is "static" and improper art is "kinetic." Kinisis, as you know, means movement and Stasis, as you know, means standing still. Kinisis: Improper art is kinetic in that it moves the observer either to desire, positive, or to loathe or fear, negative, that object represented. That's clear and simple. Improper art is kinetic, it moves the observer either to desire or to refuse, to fear or hate the object represented. Art that moves you to desire is pornography. The Supreme Court of the United States can't define pornography, therefore, that's what we have. All advertising art [for example] is pornographic. You are going through a magazine and you see a picture of a beautiful refrigerator and beside it stands a lovely girl with lovely refrigerator teeth. And you think, I love refrigerators like that. Pornography. Picture of a dear old lady and you think, "Oh, lovely old sweet soul, I'd love to have a cup of tea with that dear lady." That's pornography. You go into a ski buffs department and you see pictures of ski slopes and you think, "oh, wow, to go down slopes like that." Pornography. You get it? It has to do with a relationship to the object that's that of social, physical or otherwise action. You are not held in aesthetic arrest. Wow. What a picture. You get the point? Art that repels is didactic. All of this sociological art is didactic. And the terrible, ghastly calamity about our studios in the United States for many many years is that people have been going to school and they've been given sociology and religion to think about, and that's where all the grand ideas are, so you always try to come out with a moral of some kind, a point that is a social lesson of some kind. Social realism and all that nonsense is didactic art. And most of the novels since the time of Zola have been what I call the work of didactic pornographers; who give you the didactic and then something to carry you on through the lesson. So, that's where we are [historically]. Now if you get over on the serious side, the other side of the page–and, as my students used to say, yeah, well what about it?–Joyce says, all right to find out about the static go to St. Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas defines beauty as that which pleases; that's a very nice definition. There is another aspect, however, to art which is the sublime. And the sublime is that which simply shatters your whole ego system. In either case, we are over on the static side: one static held by fascination, the other static held by annihilation. The beautiful and the sublime. The sublime: enormous power, enormous space, to simply diminish and wipe out the ego. The sublime.

I used to have the whole text of the above, which I transcribed from a taped lecture, up on line in the library of my web site. BUT after being up there for several years, the Joseph Campbell foundation people discovered it and made me take it down "for copy right infringement". What a bummer -- it is a great lecture and is not available either on line or in a book -- you can't even find the tape any more. Anyway, all the bold and text in brackets are my own.

SO --- according to JC -- so far as ART is concerned (as opposed to "just" entertainment) "pornography" is anything that conjures desire. Doesn't matter what the object of desire is or how it is conjured. By this definition, anything that moves us to "action" -- whether toward or away from the object -- IS NOT ART. It might be fun, it might be scary, it might be interesting or entertaining or boring, it might be propaganda for a worthy cause or a cause you hate -- but whatever it is, if it moves you to "action" in some way, it is NOT art. By this definition, ART is what stops us, it makes us stop everything and just look. It can shatter our sense of self, everything we believed to be true, and holds us in awe. AWESTRUCK=ART

One of the great things about getting older and learning all this crazy shit (assuming you even want to bother) is then you get to make up your own mind about it. As an artist, I know that JC is right. BUT I ALSO KNOW that not everything we do has to be ART at that level. Sometimes boys just want to have fun, RIGHT?! If you've ever looked into the bright blue eyes of a beautiful young man and been STOPPED -- well, by this definition, THAT = ART!



WOO HOO!



Hopefully you'll get used to me eventually.

yes, i did spell that wrong. 'slash fiction' is a type a genre.


as far as the definition of wat porn is, yer right. it dusnt hav a definite meaning. but the sole purpose of porn is sexual entertainment/gratification. i dont write these stories 2 help ppl get off. as far as im concerned, these r romance stories, in a nutshell, which include sexual scenes. my stories r 4 the pure entertainment of reading, not 4 get ppl's rocks off. at the LEAST its POSSIBLE it COULD be considered by SOME as softcore porn, although i dont c it that way


well ill tell ya wat guys. insted of progressing the chapters in this story, 4 now, how bout i just delve deeper into the history of the characters & how they feel? its up 2 u guys. that sound ok?

w/in the next few chapters, i cud explain how nick has gotten so apparently "experienced" w/ other gay ppl. if that made ne sense at all. & also i cud do a chapter from taylors p.o.v & we cud c wats goin on up in his head

Kell, i think that nick's past will definitely be awesome, but i dont know about the others. Nick's past will kinda automatically progress the story a little, i think, but dont keep it like "nick: 5 years ago, blah blah blah" ya, know. Make it part of a conversation or something that'll be more than just exchanging stories.

Everything I could have possibly said was said, and then some. So all I am left is this phrase.

I am happy.

1. i skimmed over everything u wrote bcuz it was a lot & every1 here will tell u that i dont like reading long posts lol

2. even though i stand by my personal guidlines of wat porn is, i believe that if yers 2 also true, then whether or not its porn is left 2 the pesonal definition of each reader. if they use my stories 2 get off, is not only xtremely flattering 2 me, but its also their personal choice.

3. i 4get wat i was gona say here...lol

new nat. i did mention how i wud go deeper into their past, so hopefully, the ending kinda gives sumthin away bout the next chapter.

im all ears

there was A spelling error, lol. anyways, i was kinda looking forward to Nick's past, i guess i'll have to wait. Ii liked the part where you didnt put their talk over the phone in another conversation, it was much better to read it that way. the mall thing was just unimportant (for me), i dont think that taylor is getting any comfortable with his sexuality as nick was hoping, that's was what i felt when i read this chapter... i hope i was not too harsh