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 Coming Out

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nicks18

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:40 pm

painservedcold wrote:
Deep down, I think we do realize the value of being there for each other. The teasing and the occassional mean comments are (hopefully) done in good taste and to show that we're really okay and comfortable with each other, and that we do have each other's backs.

I very much agree with Trevor with this. For me, Kabe has been something like a hang-out place where you can totally let loose and say what you want (in good taste and context of course).

@Chris: thank you for sharing, but i just can't help but think what i would say if i was caught making-out and was asked "dude, are you gay?" i would probably go "DUH", then probably go back to making-out.

Regarding Mr. Mike's question. Yes, I do feel that Im ok with myself, finally.

Im totally out to myself. I accept who I am. I am past the "Why couldn't I be straight?!" depression (after my first guy kiss, I realized the answer, "That's why.").

To my immediate social sphere, Im not totally out. Only a handful of people know Im gay, a number suspect. What keeps me from being out are my Grandparents. I love them so much. I just know they wouldn't be able to wrap their minds around the idea. So Im waiting for them to pass away (God forbid) or when I move away. Kabe and Youtube has been instrumental in developing my perception of homosexuality. It brought me to where I am today.
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:23 am

if thats sincere, then thank u

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:28 am

{sentimental moment}
Couldn't agree more. This forum (and Kell's past fora - that's the plural of forum for all you Latin-ignorants lol) have been instrumental in shaping the way I percieve myself as a gay guy and homosexuality in general. Love you guys Smile
{/sentimental moment}
YOU GUYS SUCK WILLY Razz
Thought we needed some of that lol

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:37 am

Sabazius wrote:
{sentimental moment}
Couldn't agree more. This forum (and Kell's past fora - that's the plural of forum for all you Latin-ignorants lol) have been instrumental in shaping the way I percieve myself as a gay guy and homosexuality in general. Love you guys Smile
{/sentimental moment}
YOU GUYS SUCK WILLY Razz
Thought we needed some of that lol

At least we don't swallow like you babe.

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:45 am

Sabazius wrote:
YOU GUYS SUCK WILLY Razz

so do you, bitch puer (< hows that for latin *wags tongue madly*)

chris: i feel for you bro dude! lol.

i too agree. joining the NAJ forum really helped me out with coming out to myself. i used to check that page only in the night when everyone is sleeping and stuff, but now im a little more comfortable... not that i want anyone to read what kell writes and judge me or whatever...
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:46 pm

painservedcold wrote:
At least we don't swallow like you babe.
Speak for thyself. Twisted Evil

@ Chris, Thanks for the interesting story. I'm curious why, since you think she knows already, you don't feel comfortable talking about it w/ your mom. Not that I think you should or anything, just curious.

@ Kell and everyone, I think it is really cool that you guys have created this hang-out for yourselves and appreciate that you've let me hang out with you. One of the things it is showing me is how much things have changed since I was your guys' ages. Wow! I'm a bit envious, frankly. It took me so long to come to terms with myself!

One of the things that is weird to me is that apparently, even though things were very weird in a lot of ways, I was having more sexual experiences from an early age than most of you have had. Like I said, it was very schizoid for me. It wasn't that I was some pig-slut kid but things did happen -- and this was in a rural environment with a very low population density. The thing I didn't have was anyone to talk with about this stuff -- or any "educational" resources. It was all like very secretive, hidden and furtive with a lot of guilt, shame and fear. NO ONE talked about it at all.

Then, later, when I lived in Chicago in college, yeah I began to discover there was a gay "scene" but it didn't help me at all. I still felt like an "outsider."

I had a killing crush on a guy who lived in my dorm, a rugby player named Tom who was a year older and a year ahead of me. I felt really in love with him because he was unlike anyone I'd ever met. Smart, a very quirky sense of humor, a body to die for. He was of greek descent, was a bit hairy (not something I'm usually into but it looked amazing on his muscles, made the sexist patterns between his pecs and down his abs), had the cutest smile, and there was something about the way he moved his body -- especially his arms and hands -- that just fascinated me. I loved the fact that he always wore long sleeve shirts with the elbows worn out, that he liked me enough to give me rides on his motorcycle with me setting behind, my arms wrapped around his torso in his high-school jock leather jacket. Woah, super hard on for me. What really pushed me over the edge was that he trusted me enough to actually cry in front of me one time. That just melted my heart. Everything about him just turned me on.

But he was STRAIGHT! He knew I was into him and would have gladly done whatever he'd wanted. I could tell he even thought about it -- I mean, you know, straight guys do play sometimes -- but on some level he decided that wasn't a good idea. (On edit, thinking about this as I was reading it over I realized THE REASON isn't because he wouldn't have enjoyed playing around -- I think it was because he knew I had FEELINGS for him other than just sexual. I bet anything if it had only been sex, he might have gone for it. Hmmm .... Hadn't thought of that before. My emotions scared him, I think, and he didn't want to encourage them.) He didn't seem to mind that I found him attractive and would hang out with him never taking my eyes off him but he wasn't going to go there with me. In fact, he kind of took me under his wing a bit and introduced me to a gay guy he knew who was a bit older than either of us, a graduate student in mathematics. It was with Tom and his friend Jeff (who I could tell was attracted to BOTH of us, but I wasn't into him at all), that I smoked my first joint. On another occasion, the three of us got stoned together and then went to a party where there were a real mix of sexual orientations. Something this country boy had never seen before. That's where I met Pierre, who was a beautiful young black man about my age, very openly gay, and with whom I eventually slept. It was through Piere that I met José and several other of his gay friends. They'd take me out to clubs and stuff or I'd get invited to one of their parties or sometimes we'd just hang out together. But it was still very weird to me. As much as they could be friendly one minute, they could be back stabbing bitches the next! There wasn't a one of them that held the fascination for me that I felt toward Tom. Neutral


Even when I moved to the Bay Area in the early 70s, which was not only a gay mecca but a social environment with a lot more sexual experimentation going on even among 'straight' people at the time, I just couldn't "relate" to the whole "lets go to the baths and have as much sex with as many different guys as we can stand" concept. I didn't like going to gay bars (and still don't). All of it just made me feel more isolated and alone.

What really changed it for me was getting involved in some gay groups after the AIDS crisis -- a lot of attitudes shifted after that. I was even one of the founding members of The Discovery Community -- but I haven't been active in it for almost 15 years. I've lost touch with most everyone I once knew through that -- and it is really mostly ok with me. I'm not very social and really don't WANT to know very many people, gay or otherwise.

Too bad for you, you guys are kind of an exception, I guess. Surprised
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:51 pm

Nice to hear all of you guys stories Smile

and Happy that none of you have got something bad happening afterwards Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:43 pm

my mom talks 2 me about it now & then which i dont like

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:15 pm

dare de-vil wrote:
my mom talks 2 me about it now & then which i dont like
yeah but Y tho? does it feel intrusive, embarrassing, or wat?
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:57 am

it IS kinda intrusive. but the biggest part is the awkwardness. we're all so used 2 hearing our parents say wen we're little, "wen u find a nice girl..." but now my mom sez "ull find a nice boy...", i just dont like it.

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:55 am

dare de-vil wrote:
it IS kinda intrusive. but the biggest part is the awkwardness. we're all so used 2 hearing our parents say wen we're little, "wen u find a nice girl..." but now my mom sez "ull find a nice boy...", i just dont like it.
Yeah, you're right, that is annoying and intrusive. She probably means well, not that that is any excuse. FWIW, she'd be saying the same thing with the opposite gender if you were straight and you'd probably find it just as annoying. One of the things I hated about growing up in my family was everyone seemed to pay far too much attention to everyone else's business and not nearly enough minding their own. It throws the whole system out of whack.
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:27 am

but you do want to find a nice boy Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:07 pm

painter wrote:
and appreciate that you've let me hang out with you.
You have no idea how much we, if not atleast I, appreciate you Mr. Mike. You're like the gay uncle we never had. Now we do!

painter wrote:
One of the things that is weird to me is that apparently, even though things were very weird in a lot of ways, I was having more sexual experiences from an early age than most of you have had. Like I said, it was very schizoid for me.
I have a theory, and I speak only for myself on this, dunno if the other guys share the same sentiment. Maybe its because the very lack of "educational" resources and societal norm on the gay phenomenon in the rural environment allowed the unknowing gay individual (you) to explore the said phenomenon in ways a present society acclimatized gay person would not due to restrictions set by the established societal norm on the said phenomenon. What do you think?

painter wrote:
I had a killing crush on a guy who lived in my dorm, ...and there was something about the way he moved his body -- especially his arms and hands -- that just fascinated me....But he was STRAIGHT!
I know the feeling! I once had a friend who I got the hots for, but he was straight. Nobody know i was gay then. So...yeah damnit.

painter wrote:
I'm not very social and really don't WANT to know very many people, gay or otherwise.Too bad for you, you guys are kind of an exception, I guess. Surprised
We're flattered.
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:11 pm

ems wrote:
but you do want to find a nice boy Razz
Of course he does. But not TOO nice. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:36 pm

nicks18 wrote:
painter wrote:
and appreciate that you've let me hang out with you.
You have no idea how much we, if not atleast I, appreciate you Mr. Mike. You're like the gay uncle we never had. Now we do!
Thanks, that's sweet. I appreciate it.

nicks18 wrote:
painter wrote:
One of the things that is weird to me is that apparently, even though things were very weird in a lot of ways, I was having more sexual experiences from an early age than most of you have had. Like I said, it was very schizoid for me.
I have a theory, and I speak only for myself on this, dunno if the other guys share the same sentiment. Maybe its because the very lack of "educational" resources and societal norm on the gay phenomenon in the rural environment allowed the unknowing gay individual (you) to explore the said phenomenon in ways a present society acclimatized gay person would not due to restrictions set by the established societal norm on the said phenomenon. What do you think?
I think that may have something to do with it. When I was a boy "gay" wasn't a concept in my social environment -- although "queer" was. I think being "gay" is somehow "bigger" -- not sure how to explain what I mean. I mean, it would be one thing to be "queer," a guy who likes to have sex with other guys, but being "gay" means something more than that. It means lots of different things but it references a whole sub-culture, a cultural identity not just what you like to do sexually. SO... identifying as "gay" to one's self or others is associated not only with sex but also with that whole sub-cultural concept. Also, I think the whole AIDS thing has had a big impact, too. Whether they understand it or however they understand it or misunderstand it, the awareness that sexual contact with another of whatever gender could be risky to one's physical health beyond just ordinary STDs can put a real damper on the prospect. And I'm also noticing that among gay youth there seems to be more emphasis on "boyfriends" which means "relationship" and emotional connection. THAT wasn't much apart of what I experienced growing up. It was sex and it was fun and enjoyable (although there was also guilt and shame associated with it, too, which, in a weird way, also made it "hotter" because it was something you knew you weren't supposed to do although you might have not had much of an idea "why" except it was "queer"). I would have liked to have had a relationship. My first real crush happened in the 5th grade. I was totally in love with the boy (the one who, later, pined me up against the coach's desk). What was weird was, even though we slept together more than once (sleep overs at one another's houses), we never "did" anything. So, it may have been, even then, without the word "gay" to make it even more complicated, we both felt that the emotional aspect was just too intense. I know (having heard it from one who would know) that my heart throb DID play around, just as I did -- but we never played w/ one another. How fucked up is that!?

nicks18 wrote:
painter wrote:
I had a killing crush on a guy who lived in my dorm, ...and there was something about the way he moved his body -- especially his arms and hands -- that just fascinated me....But he was STRAIGHT!
I know the feeling! I once had a friend who I got the hots for, but he was straight. Nobody know i was gay then. So...yeah damnit.
Yeah, well, if my growing up experiences taught me anything it is that "straight" guys do play -- or did. The problem is the emotional component. Straight guys don't mind being "friends" with another guy -- and friendship can be pretty intense -- but they don't want to be "tied" to that relationship. I'm making a generalization, of course, each individual is different.

nicks18 wrote:
painter wrote:
I'm not very social and really don't WANT to know very many people, gay or otherwise.Too bad for you, you guys are kind of an exception, I guess. Surprised
We're flattered.
And I'm appreciative! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:53 pm

nicks18 wrote:
painter wrote:
and appreciate that you've let me hang out with you.
You have no idea how much we, if not atleast I, appreciate you Mr. Mike. You're like the gay uncle we never had. Now we do!
I actually have a gay uncle, but we don't really talk about this kinda thing cos he lives like 200 miles away and we don't see each other often enough to really feel comfortable talking about this kinda stuff. But yeah, I know what you mean!
nicks18 wrote:
painter wrote:
One of the things that is weird to me is that apparently, even though things were very weird in a lot of ways, I was having more sexual experiences from an early age than most of you have had. Like I said, it was very schizoid for me.
I have a theory, and I speak only for myself on this, dunno if the other guys share the same sentiment. Maybe its because the very lack of "educational" resources and societal norm on the gay phenomenon in the rural environment allowed the unknowing gay individual (you) to explore the said phenomenon in ways a present society acclimatized gay person would not due to restrictions set by the established societal norm on the said phenomenon. What do you think?
I can see what you mean by this. I think actually, although the effect is much less now we live in a society that is aware of and (somewhat) accepting of homosexuality, being gay is still something that you tend to be accustomed to thinking of as a private thing, and it is also something that you tend to explore without being advised on it by your parents and teachers and friends in the way that straight people do - I mean, obviously you might have some contact with fellow gays online, like we do, but not everyone does.
I think that's why, for example, talking to your parents about being gay, or coming out, can be so cringeworthy even if you and they are totally comfortable with your sexuality. I think it is even more awkward than being straight, cos even though sexuality is a private thing when you're straight, it's not totally hidden from everyone as it is when you're gay and in the closet. I guess that goes some way to explaining why Kell gets uncomfortable talking about it with his mom, although obviously he's got other reasons to be angry about her knowing he's gay and talking to him about it. Just remember Kell, we're here for you buddy.

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:45 pm

Sabazius wrote:
I can see what you mean by this. I think actually, although the effect is much less now we live in a society that is aware of and (somewhat) accepting of homosexuality, being gay is still something that you tend to be accustomed to thinking of as a private thing, and it is also something that you tend to explore without being advised on it by your parents and teachers and friends in the way that straight people do - I mean, obviously you might have some contact with fellow gays online, like we do, but not everyone does.
I think that's why, for example, talking to your parents about being gay, or coming out, can be so cringeworthy even if you and they are totally comfortable with your sexuality. I think it is even more awkward than being straight, cos even though sexuality is a private thing when you're straight, it's not totally hidden from everyone as it is when you're gay and in the closet. I guess that goes some way to explaining why Kell gets uncomfortable talking about it with his mom, although obviously he's got other reasons to be angry about her knowing he's gay and talking to him about it. Just remember Kell, we're here for you buddy.
Very insightful and well stated, Alex, and I want to echo your supportive comment to Kell. I'm totally getting where he's coming from.

You're right, growing up and coming to terms with your sexuality is "cringeworthy" for everyone gay or straight but there is a big difference, too. We're a minority and, although less so than it once was, in many respects an "invisible" one. How many of us grow up knowing there are gay adults around us who could serve as role models? How many of us grow up with older gay relatives or teachers who we'd feel comfortable talking about any of it with? It is tender and sensitive territory for a lot of reasons.

I've been reading the "Dermot" story in the high school section of Nifty. I was struck by a rather lengthy dissertation about the relationship between sexuality and "sin" presented by one of the characters, Lando. I won't give a full synopsis, anyone interested can read the full story himself, but in this scene Lando, a gay Catholic teenager, is being challenged about his faith by Dermot, a gay teenager who has had some very negative experiences with Catholic, authoritarian attitudes toward homosexuality. The below is how Lando has made sense of it for himself. I'd be curious to hear what others think about it -- not about his chosen religion but the way he's made sense of sexuality:

Quote :
"It doesn't compute, Lando. I think you're fooling yourself. But
shit! What do I know?" Dermot concluded in a rush of uncertainty, not
wishing to offend his friend.

"If you promise not to get all hostile, I'll give you the benefit of
my thoughts on the subject," Lando said.

Dermot nodded.

Lando began, "I did tell you that I had to struggle with it, and you
are right in saying that the fit is not perfect. All I can say is that I
knew I was both gay and Catholic, and I had to find a way to make that work
for me. I talked to my dad, to Father Schiller, and to my psychologist,
Dr. Lanier. And I'm going to use the word 'sin' whether you like it or
not. Now just shut up and listen. We can argue about it some other time."

"The way I see it, there are three ways a person can experience sex.
One way is the way you have experienced it. Sex can be used to hurt
someone. The most obvious way is in the S&M stuff you were describing, and
in rape. That's a blatant, physical harm. But there are other ways in
which sex can be used to hurt someone. Sex can be used to try to control
someone. I haven't seen this in my own life, but I have heard of instances
at school where a girl told her boyfriend, 'if you don't do what I want,
there will be no sex for you.' That's a perversion of sex, I think. Both
these examples are more about power and control than sex. And then, sex
can be used to depersonalize someone. Use someone. Just treating someone
like an object instead of a person. What's the phrase? A cum bucket. So,
I think if you're the instigator of any of these kinds of sex, that's a
serious sin. What we call a mortal or deadly sin, because it kills the
spirit. It dulls the conscience if something like this is done often
enough, so people get to think there's nothing wrong with it, but that does
not change the reality. You're dehumanizing the other person. In these
examples, sex is used to hurt the other person, and treat that person as
something less than a full human being, a child of God."

"Another way of having sex is what we might call recreational sex that
does not harm anyone. I mean, something like what I described doing. I
really enjoy sucking and being sucked, and the guys who have been my
partners have been kids at school, like me. It's completely mutual, and
completely consensual. Nobody is being coerced, physically or otherwise.
Just a couple of guys getting off. But it's not serious. None of us are
into a serious relationship. We're not cheating on anybody. It's just
fun. Now, I don't think that's a serious sin, but it's not using sex the
way God intended it, either. But what I'm doing is no different, morally,
than what an awful lot of straight kids are doing on dates. So, I think of
this as a venial sin. It is a sin, because it's using sex in something
other than the best way, but it's not going to send me to hell. Purgatory,
maybe, but not hell."

"Finally, there is sex the way God intended it. Father Schiller told
me sex is the greatest gift God gave mankind, next to His divine Son,
Jesus. Sex is meant to be an expression of love. St. John tells us, 'God
is Love.' In its most perfect form, when it is an expression of genuine,
unselfish love, sex is a participation in the love God has for humanity.
It's actually something sacred. And that's true whether it's gay or
straight sex. And I don't think that kind of sex is a sin at all."
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:30 pm

Link to this story please? I want to read it now, it's so hard sometimes to find this kind of insightful and developed story.

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:45 pm

Sorry, Alex, I should have done that: Dermot.
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PostSubject: Outed...   Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:29 am

So I was worried about how long this story might be & was working out ways to make it shorter, then I read Mike's & thought... SAFE!

I really did not come out... i was outed. I was in college @ Virginia Tech (I grew up in Virginia) and for some reason my mother had called me. This was a regular event and I think I was planning on coming home. Now a Mom call for me was a big deal... because it usually involved a long diatribe from her on all the things I was doing wrong & how if I just did what she wanted me to it would all be great! <rolls eyes> Some how during the conversation she said something about me needing to spend "less time trying to sleep with some slutty girl & more time studying" to which I responded "not a problem Mom, move on". Well my mother has never just moved on from a topic. Needless to say after a few moments of her droning on about sluts I yelled out "I am gay mom, I like guys, its NOT an issue, move on!". There was a loud crash and then silence... The phone went dead.

I called back like twenty times & finally she answered. She would not talk to me because she was crying... like LOUD crying... but I got her to promise she would tell no one until I got home that weekend & could tell the fam... That convo was on a tuesday...

[This part I found out later from a friend & my dad]

So my dad owned like three or four companies at that time & was crazy busy. Apparently from Tuesday on my mom did nothing but cry... a lot... really loud. My dad was freaking out & was really worried. He was calling everyone but I was ignoring the calls from home thinking they were my Mom and not wanting to deal. Finally on thur he had had enough & figed he would take my mom to lunch at a local restaurant (small town) & maybe in public she would calm down & he could talk to her to find out what was going on. Finally, she calmed down & leaned in really close and she hissed to him "Joshua's gay!!!"... my dad sat bolt upright making a loud noise crashing the table & very loudly said "You have had me worried sick and wondering if someone was dying all because Joshua is GAY! GOOD GOD who cares!" so... needless to say several people who knew me started calling me at school as many ppl who knew me were there for lunch. I got a lot of angry calls from friends wanting to know why I never told them... & one date offer! I also lost a lot "friends" some I think were just hurt to never have been told be me :-(

Needless to say I was pissed. To this day I dont like it (with you on the whole intrusion thing Kell) but I have forgiven her... but not until she did many more transgressions (like ignoring my current husband for 5 years like he was a non-person) & we did not speak for more than a year. Since then she has apologized & we are closer... She was at our reception for the wedding (no parents @ the wedding... out of state and all) & oddly enough calls & emails Scot all the time to talk (still kinda freaks him out given the history & all).

My sisters well they found out. They could care less. No I take that back they are really cool about. The youngest is just now in college and I found out this week that she walked clear across a room to tell some guy off b/c he made an anti-gay comment. She is all of 4'10' & is a blond & green-eyed terror! The guy was so scared he ran out of the room! ROFL!

Now at 32 I dont have much chance to "come out" any more. When I change jobs (as I did at the beginning of the year) I just tell people as needed/ asked. The HR department knows, the ppl I work with asked how long I have been married & I just say "Scot & I got married last year, been together for 8 years though". Its funny, some don't catch it, & some are not sure if they heard right. So funny to seem them squirm on asking if they heard it right... I never help out they have to ask <evil grin> I treat it like it is normal - because it is!

So there ya go!
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:36 am

hey, that wasnt so bad as far as long posts go. that mite be the only long post ive ever liked lol. well it sucks that yer mom didnt seem t'take it 2 well at 1st. but ya know, time goes on.

congrats dude, i think yer the 1st member of this site 2 speak whos married lol

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ems

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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:59 pm

Pretty KewL. At least things are better for you now. Are guys planning on adopting children or anything?
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:13 pm

EPHRAIM! talk about a personal question...

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PostSubject: Kids...   Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:39 pm

@Kell - its cool, if it gets to personal i will say so, i usually am not shy though so be careful what you ask! LOL

@ems - I used to think i did not like kids. Just three years ago if you had asked I would have thought u were crazy! Now, & I am told this sounds arrogant *shrug*, I have realized I dont like parents! I am tired of so many ppl that have kids and mistreat them, dont care about them, raise them to be dumb sheeple... I now want kids- surrogate or adopted so I can raise my kids to be thinkers & doers & their own selfs & not some shadow of what they think society wants. I have also come to realize that i like kids. Their minds are open, their hearts are open and the world is so full of wonder to them!

As I get older I doubt I will get kids, but I really want them.. two... but right now it just cost so much & takes so much emotionally- not the kids the adoption & paperwork part! That and Scot is not healthy so I am not sure how that would work.. but I hope and dream.
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PostSubject: Re: Coming Out   Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:10 pm

well i hope everything turns out the way u guys want soon

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