Coming Out

This is a thread for us to talk about our "coming out" thoughts, feelings and experiences.

My experience has been that "coming out" isn't something you do once and for all. It happens over and over and over again throughout your life in different ways because you're constantly meeting new people and, unless you've told them or other people have told them, generally people assume you are "straight". That isn't always the case, of course, but "generally" it is true.

The first part of coming out is "coming out to yourself," which means accepting your sexuality. That is usually a process that begins at some point in your life and I'm assuming you wouldn't be here on this forum unless you've already begun that process. Thing is, the process of accepting yourself, which includes your sexuality but may not be limited to it, can go on for a lifetime.

The second part has to do with coming out to friends and family. How "out" are you to yourself and others? How "out" can you be or do you want to be with others? There is no hard and fast rule here -- although there may be common themes, every situation is unique, different and everyone has to decide for themselves what is "safe" and what isn't. Lets face it, coming out can sometimes be both traumatic and dangerous. In any case, it is usually (but not always) difficult.

Because I'm so old I've gone through a lot of "coming out" at different times in different ways both to myself and others. I've talked about some of this before.

I knew I was into other boys from a very early age. I've written about some of my experiences, at least enough to 'tease' some of you. :p But the fact is, even though I was somewhat sexually active even as a pre-teen, I was not yet "out" either to myself or others. At that time I didn't think of myself as "gay" or "queer" -- the queer word was used but "gay" hadn't been invented yet or was unknown to reference sexual preference where I grew up. I knew by the way guys used "queer," "fag," "faggot" and other words that socially it was NOT OK to be that way BUT, I also knew that other boys, at least where I grew up DID play around with one another sexually, even into their teen years (and sometimes even after they started dating girls). So -- what I learned was, this was something that needed to be kept secret, hidden. You could do it, but you couldn't talk about it.

That created a kind of inner conflict. I didn't feel very sure of myself any way but having this secret made me feel even worse about myself. And the older I got, the more difficult it became for me.

For one thing one of the things I discovered at about age 12 was it wasn't just "playing around," at least not for me. I fell in love with another boy, Keith. I remember every detail of the moment it happened and I also remember that it scared the shit out of me. I wanted very much to play around with him sexually and he was very much apart of my masturbatory fantasies. We even slept over at one another's houses a few times -- but I was too chicken to make any moves on him. The fact that I loved him only made matters worse -- I really didn't know what to do with that. The whole thing just scared the crap out of me.

About that time I started going to another school for a couple years and then came back to the original school. Then one day (age 14) in PE class when all the other guys and the coach had left, Keith came up to me and made a solid pass at me. I don't remember what we'd been talking about but we were both in our PE shorts and tanks and he walked up to me and put his arms around me and started rubbing his crotch against mine, pushing me backwards until I was up against the coach's desk. Now, of course, the RATIONAL thing would have been to return the advance -- but I didn't. I just FROZE. It completely terrified me. I was in shock! Keith kissed me on the lips but I didn't do anything -- I just stood there totally freaked out and didn't respond to his advances in anyway. Within a few moments my lack of response began to freak HIM out and he lurched away from me and ran out of the room.

Now the sane thing would have been to talk with him about this at some later time but I never did. We were both embarrassed and not very sophisticated. Neither of us had any idea how to talk about this stuff so, although we had to see one another regularly because we were in the same classes at school and although I had one hell of a crush on him, we didn't even become "friends," really. We weren't hostile to one another but we kept our distance.

About this time, too, it became almost "obligatory" to have a "girl friend." I was pretty naïve in a lot of ways but the older I got the more depressed about the whole thing I was becoming. My girl friend's name was Della. She started the whole thing -- to be honest I didn't like her all that much and she wasn't at all attractive to me but she was obviously attracted TO me. We would hang out together some and I was always nervous around her but she probably thought that was cute. We tried making out a few times but I just couldn't get into it -- and that is what scared me most!

By the age of 15 or so I was VERY depressed. I knew I had no interest in girls at all but I also knew it was NOT safe to admit that to anyone so I had to pretend to be something I wasn't and I feared this was going to go on all my life. What misery!

When I was 16, though, my parents started to live in a different state and I went to a different high school -- a much bigger school and culturally very different. This was good for me as it enabled me to sort of 'start over' and reinvent myself. No one knew me or knew anything about me and, for the most part, I intended to keep it that way. I became a 'loner'. I did have a few 'guy' friends but none that were 'close' and any sexual escapades I had happened during the summers when my parents and I returned to the home state.

During this time I did develop a relationship with a "girl friend," named Ann. Unlike Della, I really liked Ann. She was attractive, intelligent, witty, funny -- and her family had money. I actually enjoyed making out with her (I remember one time under the grand piano in the family room of her home). We had a lot in common and continued to be boy-friend/girl-friend up into our first year of college. I went to school in Chicago and she went to a private college further north in Lake Forest. It was there, in her dorm room, that I had sex with a girl for the first time -- we were both virgins. During this time I was also having sex with guys in Chicago but that is a whole other story! I was still very depressed a lot of the time and felt very confused because although I knew I was "gay" I hadn't really come out to anyone except a few other gay guys I'd met. At some point (don't remember exactly when) I finally told Ann that I was gay. I'd already told her even when we were still in high school that I liked boys and had conflicting feelings so this didn't come as a total surprise. So, I guess Ann was really the first person I'd 'sort of' come out to -- although I was still very much 'coming out' to myself. When I made it more definite in freshman year of college she took it fairly well. We continued to be friends and I even still hear from her every once in a while -- but I haven't seen her for over 40 years.

My problem was I didn't feel comfortable about myself and about "gay" culture. In a lot of ways I was still very homophobic. I know that may sound weird but it is true -- and continued to be true for a very long time. With a few exceptions, I mostly felt like an "outsider." I just didn't fit in with any group. I was getting to know more gay guys but most of them, to me, seemed really 'fucked up' in one way or another. I didn't like that there was so much emphasis on sex. I didn't like the 'cliquishness' of it and the 'games' they played with one another (often picking on one-another and making them feel bad about themselves). All this just made me more depressed, confused and even suicidal.

After living in Chicago for a few years I went back to live with my parents. That was THE most hellacious period of my life. I was definitely NOT out to my family. The rural home was not a safe social environment. During this time I also fell in love with a 17 year old straight boy -- and that nearly drove me nuts. I was having sexual encounters and did even have sex with him once -- but it only 'freaked' him out and destroyed our relationship (another long story).

After that I moved to Milwaukee where I lived with a guy and his girl friend. The guy, Bob, had been a school chum of mine in college and we'd been sexual with one another several times. He considered himself bisexual and he was mostly fine with that. I moved in with him and his girl friend (who he eventually married) and not only did Bob and I sometimes have sex alone together, we sometimes had three ways with his girl friend (who knew about Bob's sexuality). During the time I lived with them they eventually got married and we stopped having 3-ways but I did still have sex with Bob occasionally. What was more interesting is that his girl friend and I became very good friends and would actually stay home together when Bob would go out looking to pick up guys! It was kind of funny, actually. One of them he brought home, Paul, and the four of us became friends. I know this must all sound very weird -- but this is all in the context of 'coming out' not only to others but one's self.

I still felt very confused. I still didn't like the gay 'scene' at all. I mostly kept to myself. Worse, I found myself mostly attracted to 'straight' guys and that was very frustrating. I couldn't seem to find a gay guy that I not only found attractive but that I actually liked and who also liked me. Very frustrating.

When I moved to California my intention was to not be 'gay'. I met and fell in love with a beautiful young woman and we lived together for 10 years. I think I've told some of this story before so I won't go into detail. Suffice it to say she knew I was gay and I was very 'out' to most people. The Bay Area where I live it didn't (and still doesn't for the most part) have the same level of prejudice against gays as most of the rest of the country does. So, even though I was living with a woman, I said I was gay (not bi) and most people, especially our friends, found that very confusing. But at least I had a lover! That was the weird and beautiful thing about it. We actually loved one another and I hadn't found that with a man! Mindy, my partner, wanted me to explore my sexuality more -- she would even take me to the Castro area and try to get me to 'loosen up' -- but I just couldn't deal with it. (This fact, by the way, is probably why I remain HIV- -- I wasn't sexually active with other men during the beginnings of the AIDS epidemic.)

After 10 years, though, and lots of therapy, and after the AIDS crisis was forcing the gay community to reassess itself on a lot of levels, it was time for me to really and finally "come out". Mindy and I separated (very difficult for us both -- we still remain best friends to this day) and I began going to gay-men's groups and meeting other gay men. Within a couple years I met my first gay male lover, David, and we became partners. (David died of a brain tumor in 1997.)

All this to say that "coming out" can be a very long and complicated process. But, of course, it is different for everyone. I don't make a big deal out of it. I'm just gay, my way. Anyone who needs to know, knows. Either because I tell them or they figure it out on their own. I'm OK with myself the way I am -- but it took a long time to get here!

So --- that's my story. What's yours?


.

my story is much shorter than that...ugh

im just not a fan of long posts. lol

sum day, i probly will post my own story here. lol

dare de-vil wrote:

my story is much shorter than that...ugh

im just not a fan of long posts. lol

Dude! I wrote it JUST FOR YOU!



jk

dare de-vil wrote:

sum day, i probly will post my own story here. lol

u cud sa sumthng like wats it like 4 u now not bng out?

LOL! i actually laughed at that lol

Wow, Mike. It's amazing how you've come to terms with yourself over time, and your life sounds so interesting - there are a million stories there just waiting to be told. I can also sympathise with some of what you said about not getting along with gay people. Until very recently, my only experience of gay people was my friend Tom, who I've probably mentioned endlessly. He's a bit screwed up, tbh, and is very stereotypical in a bitchy, camp way. I wouldn't have any issue with it except that I can never be quite sure how much of it is him and how much is an image, like so much else of how he behaves. As such there was a time when I was very against the whole gay image, of bitching and backstabbing and games etc. Over time of course I've come to be much more relaxed about letting people be who and how they want to be - I'm no longer so constrained by the heteronormist society.

Personally, I never had trouble accepting that I liked guys - from the age of maybe 9 I knew that I was attracted to guys, and I didn't see anything wrong with that. However, puberty is a confusing time and I didn't want to come out until I was sure what I was - until the age of about 15 I was still attracted to girls, and I've had several opposite-sex experiences. When I worked it out though, I came out to my two closest friends (one of whom now hates me, as you all know), my mum (who kinda knew already, the woman knows me well) and to my dad. All of them were totally cool with it. From there, I came out to one or two more friends who I trust (friends from theatre, and other close friends) and then was outed by my mother to my brother and sister - a story I posted on here somewhere or other, and is worth a read if you haven;t seen it already. As of the present, I'm still not out to extended family or to general friends from school, although I feel like I want to be, and I'm just waiting until I next see my family in person so I can tell them, then I'll do the traditional thing of coming out to the world at large via Facebook.

The complicating factor in all this is university. At home, there are two groups of people, those who I'm close to and out to and those who I just know, or like but am not extremely close with, from my old school, who I'm not out to. At university, I've not been keeping it a secret, so my flatmates know, and many of their friends who I've met know too. The thing is, there are people from my old school here who don't know, and one who does, and then there's my crush Chris who doesn't know but might know and I think may well be gay. So what I have to do is, work out whether I'm going to tell all my old school associates (or rather, when). Do I tell them separately, or just leave it til I come out to my extended family and then just let them work it out via FB? And if I go for the latter, do I come out to Chris earlier? I've got no idea how to make advances toward a guy, except what I've picked up from prior experiences, most of which have been a lengthy process of pseudo-joking flirtation leading to gradual 'play' into something more serious. But this is different - I really like him!

So that's the odd story of my coming out (and staying in the closet, in some cases). Any advice would be welcomed, trust me!

i agree i dont think u hav

& i consider myself out, even though its not all the way lol

dare de-vil wrote:

& i consider myself out, even though its not all the way lol

It says you like guys on FB, which means that the average person you meet is free to know that you're gay. That's about what I'd call totally out.

I think I posted my outing story somewhere, but it might have been on tfabh forums, which seem to be offline at the moment, but if I can find it I'll repost. You guys all know the story though right?

hahaha

yeah, i posted that i like guys. but not every1 checks ppls info all the time. if they look, then ta da, they know. but im not gonna go around the skool & tap peeps on the shoulder xactly

Strangely enough, I agree with Kell in that its not something that people have to go and scream from the rooftops or poke everybody in town with.
Don't get me wrong, if people ask or they say something demeaning then they'll find out, but honestly, they call it a private life for a reason, its supposed to be private and not made public or newsworthy to anyone.
So I guess that while I'm out, I'm not screaming ever so about it, and that's pretty much how I enjoy it.

Since I didn't post this here before, here's a little summary of the conversation that outed me to my siblings:

[we're talking about package holidays for some reason]
Me: I'd like to go on a cruise one day.
Bro: yeah, a gay cruise.
Me: shut up.
Later...
[My brother makes a suggestive comment]
Me: that's what HE said... On the gay cruise!
Mum: just cos you came out to your brother doesn't mean we're going to have gay jokes at the table.
Bro: ...wtf?
[At this point, my dad starts to laugh silently]
Sis: what? Alex is gay?
Mum: ...oh christ, sorry alex.
[Dad has his head in his hands, shaking and crying with silent laughter. Mum looks horrified, bro and sis look confused, I look... I have no idea]
Next 5 mins are just 'what?' and 'oh my god I'm so sorry!' followed by a long awkward explanation and laughter.

Sabazius wrote:

<snip>The thing is, there are people from my old school here who don't know, and one who does, and then there's my crush Chris who doesn't know but might know and I think may well be gay. So what I have to do is, work out whether I'm going to tell all my old school associates (or rather, when). Do I tell them separately, or just leave it til I come out to my extended family and then just let them work it out via FB? And if I go for the latter, do I come out to Chris earlier? I've got no idea how to make advances toward a guy, except what I've picked up from prior experiences, most of which have been a lengthy process of pseudo-joking flirtation leading to gradual 'play' into something more serious. But this is different - I really like him!

Any advice would be welcomed, trust me!

Yeah, I definitely think you should come out to Chris first precisely because you like him. He may know already but this would let him know you trust him with this information. The rest of it you take one step at a time.

By the way (to everyone) to me the base line is how we feel about ourselves -- not how many other people know. I agree that my personal life is personal -- I don't share it with everyone although, obviously, I'm not afraid to share it with certain groups of people. I trust you guys can handle it. For some people (like the property management company I work for) it is irrelevant. Not that I'm closeted (I'm sure I'm not the only gay person on staff, in fact I know my supervisor is gay), it doesn't have anything to do w/ my job.

Ouch heh.... Sorry but i can't stop giggling over it Alex, it sounds so Tv serie like xD

Sabazius wrote:

[we're talking about package holidays for some reason]
Me: I'd like to go on a cruise one day.
Bro: yeah, a gay cruise.
Me: shut up.
Later...
[My brother makes a suggestive comment]
Me: that's what HE said... On the gay cruise!
Mum: just cos you came out to your brother doesn't mean we're going to have gay jokes at the table.
Bro: ...wtf?
[At this point, my dad starts to laugh silently]
Sis: what? Alex is gay?
Mum: ...oh christ, sorry alex.
[Dad has his head in his hands, shaking and crying with silent laughter. Mum looks horrified, bro and sis look confused, I look... I have no idea]
Next 5 mins are just 'what?' and 'oh my god I'm so sorry!' followed by a long awkward explanation and laughter.

Actually, although I know it was embarrassing at the time, that sounds fairly 'alright' to me. How long ago was this? Have your brother and sister accepted this about you?

I never came out to my parents (both dead a long time ago now). I did come out to one sister when my partner died but I hadn't previously and the only reason I did then was because she had lost her husband and I thought she could relate at least on that level. Just to be clear, my family were all "born again" Christian types and, basically I have nothing to do with them. They totally creep me out.

The one exception to that is my nephew Steve (who is only 8 years younger than I am). I told him I was gay when he was a teenager. I knew it wouldn't matter to him. Steve married, had two sons and then divorced when they were still kids. His oldest son is gay and years ago when the kid was just a teenager I told Steve, "I think Cameron may be gay." He asked me how I knew and I said I didn't "know" but just suspected it. He asked me what he should do and I said, "Nothing -- just wait and if he ever decides to come out to you he will. In the mean time just be there for him and be aware it might happen so it doesn't come as a shock or anything." He appreciated this. He said it didn't make any difference to him, he loved his son and just wanted him to be happy. Cameron has a partner he lives with in a city but they hang out w/ Steve most weekends. This is in rural Indiana where there is a lot of homophobia.

Sucks that you were distanced from your family like that, but it's awesome to know you made that connection with your nephew and his son

My brother and sister were totally fine with it, I love them both so much for being brilliant about all of it. Especially my bro, his friend came out to him the other day and my brother told him that it didn't change their friendship a bit and he always cared for him. I was so proud when he told me :')

I came out to my sister, my mom and dad, to my friends and nothing changed, and my extended family. Everyone was supportive and everything stayed the same. My family and friends are great.

See I don't need a few pages to tell a story...
Please questions if I left something out.

I guess since I've commented here, I might as well actually post a coming out story.
Anyone have preference between coming out to my parents or coming out to my baseball catcher? I'll tell whichever story tomorrow. Both are pretty odd and funny.

baseball catcher!

ems wrote:

baseball catcher!

I had a feeling someone would ask for this one...
Okay, this is gonna be long because I need some backstory to make it make sense.
His name is going to be edited, so lets call him B. B and I had been on the same team for the two years prior to my coming out to him, and had been playing against each other for almost a decade before that, so we had a long, storied history of competition against each other. When we had been playing together, he was fond (along with every other bastard on the team) of calling me gay, queer, fag, faggot, etc. as a means of making me feel bad and making themselves feel like they're better than me. Mostly its because I was the quiet guy and everyone picks on the quiet guy, they never had a clue about my sexuality since I'm clearly just SOOO good at hiding it. **insert stereotypically flaming action here**.
Suffice to say, one day in August after we were unceremoniously thrown out of the playoffs for being the worst team in the league, I invited him out for a round of golf so we could clear the air and not have two of the team's better players shit talking each other (I made fat jokes like they were going out of style, stupid people jokes too). So we get to the pitch and putt (no way in hell we play a full size course in that weather, was ridiculously hot), and we get paired up with these two older men. Round's going pretty well, I haven't made a complete ass of myself on the course as I normally do, he hasn't made any wisecracks due to the other people around. Halfway through, I can tell he's getting bored and he offers me a cigarette. I thought hey, I'm gonna need the stress relief, might as well get used to it, so I take a drag and proceed to make an ass of myself by nearly asphyxiating on an impovershed man's cigarette while he stood there laughing. Anyways, once both of us could breathe again, he asked me if I'd mind just quitting because it sucked golfing. I was fine with that, so we left and started walking back towards the clubhouse when the usual name calling and faggotbaiting occurs, except this time I decide to call him a cocksucker who's just trying to get my attention so I'll **** him. Amazingly, he didn't take kindly to the comment, and really went for it, saying I wanted to do various things to various people, at which point I said that we should probably cool it with the attacks on each other. He agreed to it, about five seconds before calling me a fag again -.-.
We're finally back at the clubhouse, so I tell him I need to talk to him for a sec and could he come sit on this picnic bench that just happened to be next to a duck pond.
Which is where I told him to quit with the "gay crap" because I actually was gay and its fuckin me up to hear it from someone I thought was a friend.
His reaction was PRICELESS.
I'm sure you all know where this is going, but just in case, I'll say it. He fell in. The lake. Filled with ducks and their shit. It was one of those moments of pure shock on someone's face that you just can't ever forget. Considering the circumstances, I chose not to laugh, since he had very kindly decided not to eat me whole like he did with every other moderately tasty looking human (like I said, I really liked the fat jokes). When he got up, he asked if I was serious, and I said yeah, and he spent the next ten minutes complaining about how everyone comes out to him, so I said maybe its because those of us who came out to him did it so he'd stop demeaning us and treating us like we're beneath him. That shut him up nicely for a few minutes.
During his rants, we moved from the bench to underneath an oak tree, and we started throwing acorns at each other. By sheer chance, I managed to nail him square in the ass with an acorn, right about where his **deleted** would be. He thought it was something else. more hilarity ensued as he thought I was trying to rape him in a public park from 15 feet away while we were both wearing pants. We then got the pleasure of going to a mall for some bizarre combination of lunch and dinner, where he spent the whole time asking me if he could tell his parents (both our moms were with us in the mall) and whether anyone else knew and if I was serious or just trying to get him to leave me alone. My response was that if he didn't stop asking me if I was serious or if he did tell anyone that I was gay, I'd show him just how gay I was and just how gay I could MAKE him be. It was a good threat, since I happened to get to go into his room later that afternoon, just the two of us, while all the parents were in the yard.
Ah, the bedroom, scene of a million makeout stories, but not this time. First thing that happens when we get in his way too cramped bedroom is that he curls up under the covers of his bed with all his clothes on, in spite of it being about 85 degrees outside. Which is fine and well if you like dying of heat stroke I guess. What stunned me was movement around his crotch area, which I just had to ask him about. He said it was nothing, which I contest to this very day. Anyways, I decided I'd try to scar him for life and say that if he's being naughty, he does have a perfectly good gay boi in his bedroom who could make it all better, and I lightly let my fingers dance on his shoulder, which wasn't firmly stuck beneath dozens of layers.
I've never heard that long a string of profanity in my life, and I may never hear it again. Suffice to say that we did not do anything, and he kept his word to not out me. The gay jokes...well, they kept coming, but not for very long and not often from him, not after this incident and the fact that I can pretty much just pounce on him at will to get a reaction. So, ta da, that's me coming out.

@Mr. Mike: thank you for sharing that awesome story

painter wrote:

we sometimes had three ways with his girl friend

I watched Kinsey (movie) a few weeks before and in the movie, they portrayed Dr. Kinsey to observe, study and at times partake in deviant sexual behaviors, that in my opinion at that time, I thought was sometimes a bit unnecessary. One of which is a threesome involving a couple and a male or a female, like what you did then. I thought then that maybe there are things better left unexplored and unexplained by science, particularly this one, since I thought it wasn't that common. But after reading your experience, I realized it did need a bit of explanation. I just couldn't wrap my mind on the concept of sexual activity without entailing emotional complications. I guess, I have much to learn.

painter wrote:

I don't remember what we'd been talking about but we were both in our PE shorts and tanks and he walked up to me and put his arms around me and started rubbing his crotch against mine, pushing me backwards until I was up against the coach's desk.

Can I say something...THAT WAS EFFIN HOT! Gee, you were probably the yummiest eye candy during your time Mr. Mike...got a picture?

painter wrote:

My problem was I didn't feel comfortable about myself and about "gay" culture.

If with your sexual experience you still felt uncomfortable with the "gay" culture, then I'll be a fish out of water.

painter wrote:

Worse, I found myself mostly attracted to 'straight' guys and that was very frustrating

Tell me about it.

Sabazius wrote:

I'll do the traditional thing of coming out to the world at large via Facebook.

Well that pretty much doesn't work as Kell said, nobody actually reads the personal info anymore. And if they did, they'd probably think it was a joke. Those homophobic twats.

Sabazius wrote:

Me: that's what HE said... On the gay cruise!
Mum: just cos you came out to your brother doesn't mean we're going to have gay jokes at the table.
Bro: ...wtf?
[At this point, my dad starts to laugh silently]
Sis: what? Alex is gay?
Mum: ...oh christ, sorry alex.

If you weren't serious I'd think you were kidding. This is epic!
Mum FAIL.
Unforgettable family story WIN!
You got me laughing like a lunatic.

painter wrote:

I told Steve, "I think Cameron may be gay."

It would have been amazing to have you as an uncle Mr. Mike. sigh.

painseveredcold wrote:

Anyone have preference between coming out to my parents or coming out to my baseball catcher?

parents!

trevor, i didnt find that funny, the falling into the pond part was like a little funny and thats like it. now, tell the story about your parents!!!

ems wrote:

trevor, i didnt find that funny, the falling into the pond part was like a little funny and thats like it. now, tell the story about your parents!!!

No sense of humour...
I suppose one would have had to be there to see how it could be amusing